The Biggest Problem - Application Installation

Average: 5 (6 votes)

Hello all,

I am a Linux noob, sort of. I have distro hopped for several months and I have tried almost every Ubuntu distro, PClinuxOS, Debian, Puppy (I like this one for silly stuff) and several others. I would like to share some of my horror stories with you. I truly hope I am missing something, but if not, this story will be quite typical of why so many users won't/can't make the switch to Linux.

By the way... I am aware that Linux as a whole is a "FUBU" kind of system, and it is all (mostly) done for free. Mostly open source, and that most linux users will look at this post as an insult. That is not it's intent, but the comments that follow will most likely speak for themselves.

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I have finally settled on Xubuntu, i think. The XFCE4 desktop is light enough to run on my HP-ZE5457WM laptop that is out dated and Ubuntu and it's distros seem to have enough programs and updates in their distro's to keep me busy with most of what I want to use the computer for. That being said, it still isn't perfect.

Linux users can find a program that will preform the function they want in their distros repository. If you don't know what it's called, just search "dvd burning" and sure enough two or three (or more) options will turn up in synaptec. The problem is, the programs that you have an option to use may not do EXACTLY what you want to do. For example, Brasaro will burn your DVD's, but it won't convert them, so you have to install another program for that. Something like VSO's ConvertXtoDVD isn't available (or it doesn't appear to be) so you have to settle for two programs to do the work of one.

Of course you can try to run a windows app in WINE. I have put ConvertXtoDVD into wine and it works great... except for the fact that while WINE will see my DVD drive, ConvertX running in wine does not. OK... Simple enough, just Google the problem and someone will have an answer - or not... The hardcore Linux user seems to understand how to resolve this problem, but they can't explain it to you. You will be told to configure something in Wine, or go to the terminal and enter some long piece of code, and at the end of the day it doesn't work and you have wasted hours of your time trying to get something to work "out of the box"

Now... The example above is a WINE issue, and any Linux user will tell you that windows apps working in Linux is just a shot in the dark. They will also tell you that you are crazy for wanting to use that commercial app anyway when "there are tons of open source linux apps that work just fine, thank you!" But - the apps you have to chose from might not work EXACTLY the way you want... so you keep Googling for other options.

I have pulled myslef slightly away from the problem I wanted to address, so I will get back to it now. I wanted to install a dock bar similar to the one found on Mac systems, and on my son in law's vista PC. I put one called "rocketdock" on my XP system and it works great! I thought to my self... everyone says you can do anything on Linux, so surely there is one I can put on my Xubuntu system.

I first looked in synaptec. I think there was one there, but it seemed the configuration would be a nightmare so I Googled for other options... and I found one that looked perfect - WBAR. They even had a "deb" file on the google code page so I figured I would give it a go.

I installed the "deb" file and.... nothing. No option in the start menu, no "wdock" in the /usr/applications folder, nothing. so... I Googled some more and I found that I could start it by running the command "wbar", but it didn't work. Then I realized that wbar was running under the desktop, so I went into the terminal, typed "killall wbar" and tried again. This time I ran the command "wbar --above-desk" and sure enough, there it was.

I was thrilled. It looked great and I though I had exactly what I needed. I went to right click on the bar so I could change it, and nothing. Back to Google and I found that you can't configure it without downloading another program. So... I downloaded the configuration utility, crossed my fingers and voila! I went in to configure the program, and sure enough you have to know the execution command for each program you want to put on the bar. I wanted a shortcut to "home" too, so I tried to put in the command for the file manager, but which one?

As I said earlier I have distro hopped for some time, so I tried Nautilus, pcmanfm, and a few others before I realized that Xubuntu has Thunar, so... I put in Thunar, but there was no Icon. Ok... I'll just find the icon for "home" and put it there. Wait... which theme am I using? /usr/shared/icons lists several icon sets to choose from, so I looked for about fifteen minutes until I found the home folder icon that matched the theme I had installed. TaDaaah - Home folder works in the bar, and that only took about an hour.

Since I knew what I was doing now (lmao) I decided to put an icon for frostwire on there. Same story as before, except frostwire's icon wasn't listed under my theme, so I looked under default, gnome, and a few other choices before I found it. Another fifteen minutes wasted. Now I decided to go under the configuration utility and change a few more things... Icon spacing, What happens when you press the icon, etc... Just some eye candy stuff. After I got it fixed I saved and refreshed and it looked great, so I closed it out and re opened it. My eye candy was gone, but the icons were still there so I decided to just leave it alone and reboot to see if it all worked.

Guess what... The program didn't work on reboot because I didn't add it to the startup items. I googled it once more and found that I needed to download another script, put it in my /usr/bin folder, then call that script from the startup items in the xfce settings wizard. Finally I just said the hell with it and went to bed.

This is typical of almost any installation of any program that you try to put on linux that isn't neatly packed in your distro's repository. Of course you can add more repositories, but you have to know what you are doing there too, either in synaptec or by typing code into the terminal. Then once you get your program, YOU have to configure everything about it, and YOU have to take alot of time doing it.

Linux is all about configuration, doing what you want with your system. You can make it as big or little as you like. You are not hindered by microsoft's policy of locking everything in to the distro, and therefore you can't customize anything. This is good, but... Some things should be taken for granted. A menu bar/dock should come with it's own configuration file, it's installer should know that since it's a dock, it should be on top of the desktop and not underneath it, it's installer should offer the option of auto-starting with your OS, and it shouldn't take a college degree to be able to set up.

Now, there will be hard core linux users that will reply to this and say "what's so hard about that... all you have to do is go to terminal, enter about 10000 characters of code, download these packages, customize each set, find your icons, find your programs, reboot, run the configure.sh script, turn around three times and tap your heels together... I don't see what the problem is... man there are lot of whiny people around here!" :)

The true fact is that Linux is made by people that know how to do this stuff, and the aren't getting paid for it, so... there is no fancy GUI Installer, and all you get is the files. Every little detail must be configured by you, and without the GUI, you are often times left with typing code into the terminal, and heaven help you if you typed anything wrong.

In the end I deleted wbar, as I have so many other programs. I'm not dumping linux... I like it alot, I like what it represents. I like that I don't have to get a "cracked" anything because I don't have 1000's of dollars to spend on software. I am also the kind of guy that likes to figure out how things work, so eventually I will try the wbar and countless other programs again.

Eventually I will get it, but most PC users just want to use the computer, not build one. Most PC users want to set up a network between the two or three PC's in their house and be done with it. Most PC users want to install "Application A" and just use it. It doesn't matter that games don't work, or that full screen streaming flash video doesn't work. It doesn't even matter that the windows program doesn't work. There are Linux alternatives. The problem is that the linux alternatives don't work.

All that's fine and well.

All that's fine and well. Just because Linux doesn't work for YOU then that's no reason to say "it sucks". Linux DOES work for millions of people.

Just use what suits YOU but don't rubbish what others find perfectly OK.
That's what CHOICE is all about and that is what Linux gives the User - CHOICE. Unlike Microsoft who do not.

Exactly right. This is why

Exactly right. This is why I went back to Windows after 2 years using Ubuntu.

I get really tired of having to research every damn little thing to get done what I need to get done. You can say what you want about Microsoft's OS, their costs, whatever... but I don't need to configure everything and spend 3 hours doing something that should take 3 minutes. There are other aspects to life besides sitting in front of a computer. And forget getting any help from forums... that's a joke. Maybe 1 out of every 8 times I had trouble did I find an applicable solution I could follow online.

Linux will never be a viable alternative to Win or Mac until they get the basic things right. But the Linuxians circle themselves on their own arguments. On one hand everything you need you can get with an open source app. You don't need proprietary software. Linux is easy, and user friendly.... then you have a problem you can't figure out and suddenly you get the "maybe Linux isn't for a dumbass like you" treatment. There's a learning curve, it isn't for everyone, etc...

Which is it?

Here's my horror

Here's my horror story:
Tried to compile Alpine because I do not have admin privileges to install the Debian package (I'm using Ubuntu). It seems that rpm packages can be installed without admin privileges, but the box I'm using does not have rpm.
I try to compile Alpine, and I get error because "security/pam_appl.h" cannot be found.
I download Linux PAM. I cannot compile it because yywrap cannot be found during linking. Googled and found this: http://flex.sourceforge.net/manual/I-get-an-error-about-undefined-yywrap....
I cannot add "%option noyywrap" without the .c files being regenerated because flex is not installed on the system.
I download and compile flex. The compilation and install is smooth.
Get some other problems by adding "%option noyywrap", so I decide to link the object to lib fl.
Get past linking error, but now get error that yacc is not installed. I download, compile, and install yacc without problems.
Try to compile Alpine. Getting errors that "security/pam_appl.h" cannot be found on osdep.c. I can't figure out how to modify the configure file and it seems that passing the include dir to configure does not generate the correct Makefile. I'm probably doing something wrong. So I modify the Makefile to include the PAM include directory.
Still getting that "security/pam_appl.h" cannot be found. Shouldn't CFLAGS/INCLUDES=-I do the job? I'm not thinking straight anymore. Modify osdep.c to so that absolute location of pam_appl.h is specified.
Still getting the same error! Turns out that the Makefile does "cat osdepbas.c osdepckp.c osdeplog.c osdepssl.c > osdep.c" to generate osdep.c. This makes me barf. So I modify one of the .c files to point to the absolute location pam_appl.h. (By the way, they do they do #include "sslstdio.c" in a osdep.c. Sure you can do that, but that's seems like lousy, lazy engineering to me).
I still can't compile because I'm getting a boatload of compilation errors.
I stop.
I download and pine. Get undefined reference to "crypt" during linking. There is no configure script, so I have to modify Makefile or something else to point to libcrypt. I stop for the day.

On other hand, the Windows Alpine version installs and starts up in a snap. No problems at all.

nightmare indeed. It's like

nightmare indeed. It's like the food bank. Sure the foods free, but some of its expired and you have to wait in line forever. I've enjoyed, personally, using linux myself, but agree that linux can be a nightmare to get some programs working. It seems to me that the day that everything you get for linux works out of the box, is the day you'll be handing your hard earned dollars for that same software. On the other hand most of the stuff i download from synaptic works just great out of the box. Not everything holds my hand and guides me the whole way, but pretty damn close. If your downloading a .deb it should be pretty automatic though.

RUBBISH! Ubuntu has Alpine

RUBBISH!
Ubuntu has Alpine in the Ubuntu repository. Why would you even be trying to install a deb file when it's in the repositry?

Sorry a PACK OF LYING FUD.

Yes, I found out shortly

Yes, I found out shortly after that alpine comes with Ubuntu. I didn't expect alpine to be installed.
However, I was trying to compile the package, not install the .deb. I don't have root privileges to install to install deb files. Passing --force-not-root to dpkg didn't work because dpkg still tries to add something to /var. I couldn't find a way to install a package as root. I could not compile alpine for the reasons I listed in my first post.
Sure, alpine was installed, and I was off the hook, but flex and yacc were not installed--programs that are needed to compile other programs. I would have expected yacc and flex to be installed but not alpine.
Again, the Windows version installs in a snap. You have an option of installing or retrieving the executable from the .zip, which you don't need to install. The DLLs you need are already there.

First you should consider

First you should consider that one of the reasons that Windows has problems with malware is that software can be easily installed by non-privileged users.

I've also noticed that when Linux is installed as a workstation, some of the development tools do not install. If you install from a package, the manager will take care of these but if you are compiling you do have to look around for some stuff.

I run Debian Pure64 on an AMD Athlon X2 system, andwanted to convert some home movies to mpg files. Of course the video capture cared is not supported because the manufacturer of the controller chip has no in-house Linux developer and the loadable firmware for the controller must be closed source due to certain provisions in the DMCA. (BTW, if you know any Linux developers in Toronto I hear this place is hiring). I do have a pvr, but it only records video into wmv files.
Due to Debian's inclusion policy mencoder is not available on official repositories and must be downloaded as source and compiled.
so I downloaded the mplayer source tarball, which includes the mencoder source, ran the .configure, got an error, researched the error , found the fix. fixed it, ran .configure again got another error Repeat cycle. After several cycles I get all the dependencies resolved, run make and make install and I'm good to go.
It seems like there must be a better way.

The point is Linux users,

The point is Linux users, that Windows does what people want easily. I've tried using Linux for many years now, and I keep going back to Windows because it does what I want quickly and effortlessly. Doing the same thing in Linux can make me mad as heck. I follow the instructions in the readme files etc with Linux to get stuff installed, I apt-get or whatever the files I need for the particular program to run, I link them up if they need it, I make sure all the directories or whatever are pointing to whatever else I need to make something work, then it doesn't work. I'm no idiot, I know how to follow instructions, but time and time again I get frustrated by Linux's inability to do standard installs right. Synaptic this, Yast that, whatever works is great, then after a day you find that things aren't quite going according to plan. So you boot up Windows, you find similar programs and you think, will I get the same problems? And you find that you don't. You download, you install happily, oops, it doesn't work? What do I need? Ah I see I need to download that, ok, so I do, and it works. Five minutes after downloading the program is installed and running under Windows.

I like the idea of Linux, and it has come a long way over the years, but it really needs to get its act together if Linux has any chance of challenging the likes of Microsoft.

So what will I do? Well, Linux no longer shares the hardrive with Windows, It's gone and I'll probably upgrade to Windows 7 eventually.

"but it really needs to get

"but it really needs to get its act together if Linux has any chance of challenging the likes of Microsoft"

Here's the thing... Linux is a "F.U.B.U." kind of system. The guys that write programs, scripts and entire distros don't really care if Linux can challenge or overthrow MS. Linux coders and compilers created their software because they wanted to do something, not because they wanted someone else to be able to do it.

So... When will Linux become a contender that the creators AND the users can both use? Probably never. Until someone invests a ton of money hiring hundreds of programmers to create a user based system, it will never quite work right for everybody. BUT, even if someone did this, you have to convince half of the software companies to spend their own money writing linux versions of their software, knowing full well that there will not be any return on their investment, because at the time only 1% of the market is linux.

Some linux distro out there has to become a full blown corporate entity. Hundred's of software companies need to invest millions in that entity. Millions of consumers that have heard linux horror stories all of their life have to then be persuaded to purchase linux, or a computer with linux on it while a windows box is sitting right next to it and only costs $50 more.

That's a pretty tall order, and chances are that it would eventually fail even if all the above could happen. Not to mention, that most linux users and almost every linux programmer would sooner have their eyes gouged out rather than support a commercial entity that goes against everything that linux stands for.

You can't have a truly user friendly system without a windows mentallity. And a linux system that has a windows mentallity really isn't linux anymore... it's a windows clone..