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Linux printing is STILL a joke, even now
Wed, 01/31/2007 - 03:12 — jon
I'll add to this later, but basically setting up printing under Linux is a very hit-and-miss, trial-and-error, and ERROR PRONE excercise.
This is ridiculous, after the length of time Linux and Unix printing subsystems have been in existence.
There has been valiant work done, especially by the people behind www.linuxprinting.org - but they have been consistently left out in the cold. Linux printing is 'looked down on', and not seen as 'sexy', yet if it WORKED - PROPERLY!! - Linux with OpenOffice would already have owned the Desktop market.
As it is, I frequently have to submit documents across to an MSW user, or run vmware (after wasting days setting up print drivers), just so I can print something out in duplex on a really common HP printer. This has to change.
So, my printer working just
So, my printer working just fine is a fluke? Oh, and the printers I install at businesses and your Grandmother's house...those were all just flukes?
Why not get a life instead of revealing to the world how ignorant you are? I'd help you but I know you're a brick wall. I don't help brick walls so you'll have to keep getting advice from your ignorant 11 year old buddies.
fucktard I just installed
fucktard I just installed fedora 10 with an epson printer and when I print something
the fucking printer stops in the middle of a page and just blinks busy forever
so YES printing in linux is still XIT !
Same here. Fedora 11 with
Same here. Fedora 11 with common and well supported Lexmark printer just does not work.
Here I am wasting valuable time with something that was (previous versions and distros) working
I guess by shear luck.
I guess it can really be
I guess it can really be said that it depends on what you use. I decided to switch to Linux in 2000... just because it better suited my needs. Since that time and now printing has become much much easier in my case. I bought two HP printers, plugged a network interface in one, the other USB into my machine and started printing without any setup.
Well ok I lied... the network printer was a bit of fussing till I realized my firewall was blocking printer discovery.
My vmware of windows (WinME of all things) was a real pain in the but, still don't have it working.
So as I said... it really depends on what you use.
Fedora 10 is coming out in 14 days... it will be interesting to see the printing enhancements.
Windows printer drivers are
Windows printer drivers are generally made by the manufacture. There are many linux printing drivers. My solution: stop buying HP junk that need 250mb driver packages filled with crap i dont want.
Hallelujah on that. HP's
Hallelujah on that.
HP's rotten bloatware is an abomination to mankind. Completely ridiculous. I have seen HP printing packages that *exceed* 1GB. How f*cking lame is that?
I once installed a samsung
I once installed a samsung CLP-510.
As a result, CUPS died. Forever. Looks like the driver tried something weird I cannot understand. CUPS does not even start anymore. The cool thing is that I removed the driver completely.
So, not only I cannot print with the new printer, I also lost the ability to print with the previous 2 printers. I don't know how something can allow to crash so bad and become a "standard"! Where's the "elegance" of the modularity? Is this an example of good design? Any decent "standard" system should detect those issues (in the 2007) and roll back to safety values. Maybe this behaviour were acceptable in the '80s but not today!
yes ESR nailed it with his description of CUPS
I have tried to set up printing in Debian and found it confusing and difficult.. and I have been using Linux since 1992.
Eric Raymond pretty much nails it in this article
linux printing via mswindows and photocopier
As an example:
I just had to take an xls copy of an ods doc to a windows person to print it out.
I am now going to photocopy it.
This is what linux printing has reduced us to.
heres my experiences with a
heres my experiences with a lexmark z600 printer, eventually i did get it to work but not until after some shell script debugging..
I spent days, no, WEEKS
I spent days, no, WEEKS trying to get a standard Epson printer working on various versions of Linux (Fedora, Suse, Manrake, then Mandriva etc etc, and NEVER got it working properly. In the end I gave up. The drivers were impossible to find, or if you did find one it didn't install etc, just utterly useless.
One day, just to prove a point, I took the EXACT same printer round to a friends house who has Vista, and I literally couldnt have STOPPED it working if i tried:
'windows has detected a new printer'
'windows is now searching the INTERnet for drivers'
'windows has found the drivers and is installing them'
'installation complete'
All that in a matter of seconds. Not only that, but it worked of course.
Epson among other printer
Epson among other printer manufacturers dont provide the developers with the needed information so it's possible to interface with the printer, that is the problem.
Do not complain about "linux" if it's a manufacturer that does not support it.
And i even know some printers that are ONLY supported on a few different Unix os'es, so suck on that one. =)
If you want a working printer for you system i would recommend you to get a HP printer (they at known for having quite good support for all os'es) or check
http://www.cups.org/ppd.php
Go lay down fanboy.
Go lay down fanboy.
I violently disagree. If the
I violently disagree.
If the printer speaks postscript or PCL6 then there is no excuse, it should just work.
Mark you - Epson printers suck pus in hell anyway and should be abandoned completely to the scrapheap of shit equipment history.
Are you suggesting that
Are you suggesting that instead of making it work with our printer we should get a printer that work for the system?
What if he bought it already? What if it was the best looking printer? what if we don't know anything about printers?
That's just not real... Man. I'm sorry to tell you this. but you seriously need a reality check. most people when they go to buy a printer they dont care if the system supports the printer or if you will have configuration problems.
Users don't really give a damn of the drivers they just plug the printer and think it will work. At most inserting a CD and auto-installing the required software will do the trick.
We have to press ask this part of linux gets better for the good of all.
Linux is a joke. Linux was
Linux is a joke. Linux was supposed to catch up 8 years ago what happened? Hardware is a moving target and Linux developers living in their mama's basement don't have the motivation to compete with a worker who's working overtime motivated by ferraris.
The linux code is ass, Not even Hungarian present and some of the most hideous programming styles I have ever seen. I believe no less than half the code needs to be rewritten. Face it, Linux is only good for broke asses who can't afford windows server and IIS. The only way linux can run an app correctly is when it emulates windows with wine LOLOL.
QED
You are an idiot. I have
You are an idiot.
I have used Linux for the last 5 years, with Canon and HP printers and I have never had a problem with it.
CUPS works great!
I like linux... but I must
I like linux... but I must say I totally agree with you..
I mean.. come on, it is not about microsoft being a corporate monster with it tentacles unmorally destroying the smallest competition for the disgrace of the public, it is not about the supossed dignity that comes with people that use software created by benevolent souls which are capable of working their asses off for no money...
It is about systems working, systems being capable of catch up with hardware improvements and staying in the cutting edge of technology.. and baby.. only a competitive and lucrative corporations are able to hold the economic motivation for doing that...
We are all humans... humans get bored when the see no positive retribution for their acts.. and in western culture and all around the world...money is and will keep being the greatest motivation for us to work hard.
I agree as well. It is very
I agree as well. It is very difficult job to compete with someone like Microsoft, who has a "real" management structure and lots of resources (engineers, money, etc.). I have given up on other OS-s because windows "just works" well enough for me. I don't have the time to second guess why OS-es don't want to work for printing and other things.
Here is what I really mean. I fly a lot (I don't like flying but I am stuck with it...). I just want the aircraft to work (to not crash or act weird). I don't know how it works, I don't even know how to fly it. I just want it to get me to the destination in a nice seemless way. I feel the same about OS-es.
I think windows + a modern computer is really a fantastic tool. I have used them for many years and have never had to call Microsoft support. Now, with the reasonably seemless internet connection for getting drivers etc. and a maturing interface (XP/Vista) its really getting good.
I would personally love Linux to give windows a run for the money, but without the corporate structure and resouces, I don't know how it wil become mature enough to make it seemless enough that normal users won't be really frustrated when trying to use it.
Windows sucks, Mac sucks,
Windows sucks, Mac sucks, Linux sucks less. Just because commercial software is profitable doesn't mean it's good quality. Besides Linux has been driven by large corporations past and present (e.g. Canonical, Red Hat).
P.S. Can someone please tell me why Linuxsucks.org points to localhost.
blake: Linux is for
blake: Linux is for masochists who love to torture themselves writing terminal codes and recompiling crap just to make the OS work properly. For end-users, Linux provides a MEDIOCRE experience at best.
And how come that Linux still has the 1% of market share, if it is free and superior?
Answer: Only 1% of the market share is composed by masochists.
Speed, stability, security,
Speed, stability, security, customizability = superior.
Linux is not that hard to
Linux is not that hard to use.
Have you ever tried to run
Have you ever tried to run brother printers on a Linux platform? Who did and failed raise your hand...
You just have to make sure
You just have to make sure your hardware is supported first before you buy it.
As opposed to buying
As opposed to buying whatever hardware you want knowing full well it will work flawlessly with the drivers shipped with it or that you can download and install off the net in 5 minutes.
As opposed to buying a HP
As opposed to buying a HP network all-in-one and spending two days trying to get the cr@p over complicated HP software to work on 3 separate Windows machines (2 x XP Pro, 1 x 2000 Pro). After much searching found the unadvertised "basic" drivers on HP's website, which I downloaded and worked. The much touted advanced features of the printer are now not available, but at least it doesn't crash anymore or try and constantly connect to HP to chat. Install / uninstall on Windows took literally hours, including use of the HP utility to clean out the stuff left behind by the Windows uninstall process.
By contrast the same printer installed on PCLinux in less than 10 minutes, using clicky clicky on the mouse. No command line. Print, scan and fax all working. My only gripe is that it defaulted to US Letter, which meant I had to change the default to A4 since that is what I generally use. I can access the printer either from a GUI in the programs menu or, if I really want to, via CUPS through a browser.
I agree that Linux printing can suck. But so can Windows. As for Vista... I'll point you in the direction of some folks I know who now have a new printer - because Vista didn't work with their "old" one, i.e., one they purchased three years before.
Never encountered a problem
Never encountered a problem with an HP printer. In fact, Vista took it one step further so that I didn't have to do anything. I plugged it in and it installed the drivers all by itself. Linux printing has gotten better, but the working hardware is still only for a select few vendors, whereas with Windows the chances of running into a driver issue are pretty slim.
Wow i cant get over the
Wow i cant get over the blatant stupidity of some of the people bashing Linux in here. Seriously you all have no idea what your talking about. But I know your story:
You got so fed up with windows that you decided to try something else.
You found out that you were too stupid to figure it out.
You reinstalled windows and are now bashing linux to mae yourselves feel better about your decision.
You know what, stay in windows........we dont need you in linux.
Your post contributes
Your post contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion except, as you so astutely point out, "to mae yourself feel better". Thanks for nothing.
An operating system should
An operating system should not require a frekin' PhD. in CS in order to use, and comments like yours will only further push Linux into the DON'T CARE category of the OS truth table.
Face it: Linux blows rhino as a desktop. It has its place in the world but as the everyday interface for ordinary users - uh, no. But keep on writing your graduate term papers in vi and shitting on those who are "too stupid" to figure out the anachronism that is Linux - that will really show us all!!! You frekin' luser.
At one point in time
At one point in time everyone had to learn how to use Windows without a clue as to what they were doing. If you just gave Linux the same amount of effort that you gave Win you all would find that it doesnt require a PhD to figure out. And yes...Linux is ready for the average desktop user. Quit going on second hand hate info that you get from other tools and actually devote to accomplishing the learning curve involved in doing something new. I hope that anyone who is curious about using Linux that finds their way to this site can see what I see, that most everyone here has a "Lets give up before we even try" M.O. and just to call it what it is....mindless FUD.
I have certainly given Linux
I have certainly given Linux due diligence. My main PC at work runs Ubuntu 8.0.4. And I am writing this from my Dell laptop which is running PCLinuxOS 2007. Here is what I can tell you regarding my experience with my laptop:
- Getting the Broadcomm wireless network adapter to connect to an access point was an exercise in frustration. It took me practically an entire weekend to read around various forums, download a valid driver, and finally use NDISWrapper (or whatever it is called) just to allow me to connect w/ WEP. Never did figure out how to properly configure WPA supplicalnt so Im stuck with weak encryption.
- Configuring sound was also a PITA. I spent hours paying with various combinations of OSS, ALSA, "default sound", and everything else under the sun. What I finally ended up with was a laptop whose built-in speakers don't work, line-in doesn't work, and can only play sound (thru headphones) to one application at a time. Can't use my laptop for VoIP calls because it doens't take my mic sound input. Yes, I've verified that it is not the headset, and it works in Windows (dual boot system).
- Playing back CDs ALWAYS skips. No amount of tweaking w/ the settings in the various players seems to alleviate this.
- Can't disable my Synaptics touchpad (which I hate because it is so sensitive it practically detects fingers hovering 6 inches away). Running either qsynaptics or ksynaptics to try to do so results in an error message telling me "Shared memory is not accessible - please turn "SHMConfig" to "on" in xorg.conf". Tried it - and it doesn't work. Tried every trick I could dig up in forums and NOPE - the touchpad is still enabled. Ended up circumventing this by putting duct tape over top of it. Boy, that sure looks professional.
- Mozilla Firefox hangs when displaying sites with Flash content. Not sure this is really Linux's fault but it's still an annoying difference that I never encountered in Windows.
- Forget trying to connect to an Outlook Exchange mail server (which are ubiquitous at every company I've ever worked for). No, Evolution didn't work for me - it allowed me to pull mail but not send. Eventually just went back to Thunderbird and use my web browser to pull my work email.
All of these things have added up to a general impression that, while I like the IDEA of using Linux as my day-to-day OS, it's just not feasible. I want the damned thing to just work, not have to spend days and days messing with it to get basic functionality. I will eventually wipe this machine and reinstall XP. I will continue to use Linux in my lab at work, because it allows me to do a lot of things that I can't do well in Windows (e.g. Wireshark w/ TLS and PCAP support). But seriously, for my *personal* computer, I will either use Windows or maybe even check out a Mac in the future.
Its interesting that people
Its interesting that people can have such different experiences with the same system. I use debian lenny, not touted as the easiest system for beginners, but as I have said before and others as well, if you gave it the same time you gave windows when first it came out you would find it's pretty easy to use, safer, more stable. That statement is a bit vague but seriously, here is a major difference between windows and linux, windows made you pay for all their mistakes. you had to buy software that wasn't ready for the market, it crashed, had no built in network security whatsoever, week applications, it was basically crap, but it worked most of the time. then microsoft fixed problems and pushed the latest version for more money, and that cycle has continued. Then they stole ideas and basic OS/kernel structure from everyone except themselves and finally (in about 2005; eg XP SP2) they hacked out a reasonably stable, responsive, secure system. linux is at a similar point with about a billion or two less in annual revenue, and its free. How quickly we forget the BSOD that plagued windows for 10 years, that I and you and all of us paid good money for. Back to my point, my rig with debian lenny:
Full functionality with GFX card ( easy install via download from nvidia.com, no reboot required!!)
Intel centrino duo 1.8 GHz humms nicely without problems
full (and then some) codec support --via mplayer, vlc (GUI installs)
firefox works fine, no hang with flashplayer
opera work well
compiz fusion is a nice touch and looks pretty; apt-get install compiz-fusion *ENTER* (or GUI install)
plug and play mouse, and all usb devices i have plugged in work
HP USB printer, no drivers to install it just worked
wireless driver provided more functionality than windows counterpart
sound card, phone jack, mic, speakers all work out of box
thunderbird works great for my email account (send, receive, attach, save, whatever)
Full CD/DVD/CD-RW support no skips or bad burns
OOO is a nice office alternative ( who wants to spend over 500 for the M$ counterpart anyway)
SD card reader support
in all fairness though things that didn't work:
built in webcam
wireless was hard to configure at first but the latest kernel upgrade integrates its control
powersaving settings (suspend hibernate) are not working at all
alot of M$ specific hardware/software
copyrighted codec support is a bit harder to install do to legal reasons
debian has come a long way since i last tried to use it over 2 years ago.....
your touchpad problem, you have to either, not load the module at boot, or remove it after boot
granted in should be a right click and un-check a box kind of thing but here is how its done for me:
as root/sudo: rmmod psmouse *ENTER*
To all of you that complain
To all of you that complain that this and that are not working: if you don't have the patience to solve it, then why are you wasting your time?
Clearly, a Linux based distribution is not for you, and the hours you spent trying to configure something prove that. If you don't like configuring computers simply don't use it. No one asked you to. Last time I checked, most Linux distributions were free and made by thousands of volunteers around the world. Based on that alone, OF COURSE THE DISTRIBUTIONS WON'T HAVE THE SAME FINESSE AS A WINDOWS OR MAC OS.
Hardware companies build with profit in mind, and profit will be made from Windows/MAC OS, as the leading OS in the market, who charge a substantial amount. Nobody engineers hardware for Linux and therefore we get a hard time getting things to work.
Things have come a HELL OF A LONG WAY over the last decade with regard to hardware support but we are still some way behind in certain respects.
As I say, nobody asked you to use a free distribution. You made the choice to download and install it. Fine. If it doesn't work, don't use it. It didn't cost you anything. And if you want to use it, consider dual booting so you have something to fall back on.
It is much more of a ball-ache getting web plugins and the like to work under Linux; that's just the way it is. If it were the other way round, do you really think Linux would only have 1%- if that- of the desktop market share?
Unlike office workers and anyone else who needs to be rather productive on a PC, or people who don't know how to set up their computer, I can achieve everything I need to- apart from Windows games- under Linux, and I don't mind going through configuration files to get things to work.
If that's not you, LINUX IS NOT FOR YOU.
Um, no. Linux developers
Um, no. Linux developers and advocates assume that users will know what programs like 'john', 'ajuk45', 'a564' and 'kolio', 'Yana is not yet another app', "pitt", 'Kopete', 'xvfx86fg blah blah' mean. Just look at Fedora 8's package list for the incomprehensible gobbledygook that software is called. No mention during installing when selecting packages what they mean.
So I'm left to guess and learn it all.
Linux developers and advocates assume that I can figure out how the sound subsystem works, where the config files are, where certain options are generated, etc, etc to get sound working. Or how to edit this makefile or .config file or whatever to install a program. Or how to find text config files whose location varies from distro to distro, and from release to release, know what changes were made, etc.
So I'm left to hope those who write it tell us. Heck, I've even written production software and been stumped just trying to get some apps to work.
Linux developers and advocates assume that we all like constant change. My printer (HP LAserjet" works well with Linux (I use LPD), but what happens when I upgrade and use CUPS? Will it still work? Granted this happens in windows too.
Lastly, Linux developers and advocates assume that hardware manufacturers are going to, out of their kindness, make drivers for the hundreds of distros, each with many releases that are incompatible. I've contemplated how I could release a game I've written for Linux as a single binary and have it work on any machine capable of 256 colour graphics in a window. So how would I deal with a driver? With Windows, its easy.
Linux developers and advocates assume I must be dumb if I can't figure out their 'in joke' recursive acronyms, and their own work. So users just get insulted and developers and advocates then blame MS for Windows dominance.
....sigh. U buddy, are a
....sigh. U buddy, are a fool. 1st of all I highly doubt you are a programmer of any kind. 2nd ... quote "Um, no. Linux developers and advocates assume that users will know what programs like 'john', 'ajuk45', 'a564' and 'kolio', 'Yana is not yet another app', "pitt", 'Kopete', 'xvfx86fg blah blah' mean." OMG where do I start....hmmm....k with Kopete. Kopete is an instant messenger. Sure its name has nothing to do with what it does but either does AIM at first glance or how bout ICQ for that matter. As for the others, lots of system files in linux have incoherent names....and yet again the same is true of windows. But heres the difference, did u bother to open Synaptic Package Manager and look them up to get a full description of them and their dependencies....you retard.
So you just call me a liar?
So you just call me a liar? Then you wonder why people say Linux advocates have a bad reputation! Yes, I have written a little software, including a software tool used on production. That is, a piece of software to gather statistics from a balance for production staff to use, catalog various tablet products and ensure the sample weighed is within specifications. No, its not a full blown Office Suite or something, but I have had more experience writing software for end users who wouldn't know how to turn a PC on than most computer users. I don't particularly care if you don't consider me a programmer or not because I don't belong to your clique.
When you're installing Fedora, you get all these names and no description. You USED to be able to press a button and find out. Why did that go? There is no way to find out what they are and unless you've USED it before, you wouldn't know how you could find out what they are within the OS. So you're left thinking "Do I install it now, or do I leave it and maybe I might have the option to install it later".
I'm tired, mighty tired of people calling those who try to use Linux "retards" simply because they haven't got prior knowledge of the product. It's as asinine as me calling you stupid because you don't know who Corey Worthington is or you don't know about a product you've never heard of before.
Windows programs can be obscurely named, but there isn't this expectation that the name alone is enough (unless its IS widely known, like Outlook, then you have the luxury). MAybe to you, you can't see the issue because you always approach Linux as someone who KNOWS Linux, but for those that don't know it, little bits of knowledge that you take for granted, they just don't have.
And no, I didn't run Synaptic, because the system never booted in this machine. The screen not long after init started (presumably when the graphical progress meter comes up) and trying to the edit the GRUB command line to boot into single user mode and disabling the gui start up didn't make a difference.
But I suppose I'm a retard because it didn't work, or somehow my hardware is at fault, or "insert some way to blame the user".
Ill choose to inset some way
Ill choose to inset some way to blame the user. I really get a kick out of people in here calling me out for calling them retards and fools, and yes behind ur backs much worse. I suppose i should explain myself on that. The reason I do is because the site exists at all and people have been flocking here spam hate and FUD info about Linux. It becomes obvious to me that you people lack intelligence because you all have dove into your first Linux experience without doing your homework. Would you try to go skiing for the first time without lessons and go straight down a mountain? Why in the world would you use Fedora as your first flavor, it is set up for the moderate to advanced user and if you took your time to research it you would have known that. Why not start with Ubuntu? It is famous around the world for being a user friendly distro with lots of commercial support and its forum it second to none. Everything a beginner *nix user would ever need to know to get started is in there somewhere. Besides that, and to save myself from typing any more, ill direct you up the page to a few previous posts of mine. "
Wow i cant get over the blatant stupidity of some of the people bashing Linux in here. Seriously you all have no idea what your talking about. But I know your story:
You got so fed up with windows that you decided to try something else.
You found out that you were too stupid to figure it out.
You reinstalled windows and are now bashing linux to make yourselves feel better about your decision.
You know what, stay in windows........we dont need you in linux."
"At one point in time everyone had to learn how to use Windows without a clue as to what they were doing. If you just gave Linux the same amount of effort that you gave Win you all would find that it doesnt require a PhD to figure out. And yes...Linux is ready for the average desktop user. Quit going on second hand hate info that you get from other tools and actually devote to accomplishing the learning curve involved in doing something new. I hope that anyone who is curious about using Linux that finds their way to this site can see what I see, that most everyone here has a "Lets give up before we even try" M.O. and just to call it what it is....mindless FUD."
PWNED!
Instead of calling other
Instead of calling other people stupid why don't YOU cut the retard crap about using "U" for "you" and "pwned" for "owned"? It just shows how juvenile you Linux fanatics are while living in your momma's basement!!
By the way I think that most people like you are Aspies or at least have a degree of autism. Let's face it you can't even communicate verbally or write out descent instructions for the junk software you design yourselves!! You don't know as much as you think you do about computers. I can't believe the mistakes you guys make in your programming and design! The fact of the matter is in a business environment, or one that wants to grow, you cannot release the crap I've seen with open source and expect to get anywhere! Releasing a modification two or three times in a few days is not going help Linux improve its viability even amongst hardcore computer people! So get over yourselves! Get some social skills or go associate with your autistic/aspie Linux friends!
BTW! U been PNWED!!
I still prefer Linux over
I still prefer Linux over Windows, just installed it on a new Thinkpad (refurbished). Seems to work all OK, detecting all hardware except the modem (which needs drivers). Technically, Linux is good.
Problem is, Linux developers just dont understand people, which is why MS run rings around them. They think that the 99% of users who still use MS, despite the fact a free, more reliable OS is around is irrational. Problem for this is, they are rational, and no repository, wobbly windows or wrapper or new sound sub-system is going to help. Linux zealots are the ones driving the wrong way down the freeway wondering how EVERYONE can be so stupid as to be driving in the wrong direction.
Linux is stuck, because its just coders coding for coders, who think the solution to any issue with the OS is to hack out more code. The whole "If you're unhappy with the OS, then get your keyboard and start coding!" attitude sums up Linux's main problems perfectly. If you can see the issue with theis sentiment, then congratulations.